Why I'm Still Building on Liquid

The Liquid exploit, the case for building where covenants actually exist, and an honest look at Spark, Drivechain, Rootstock, Stacks, ordinals, and Taproot Assets.

OceanSlim

17. September 2026September 17, 2026 · 14 Min. Lesezeit14 min read

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On September 6, someone minted roughly 4,000 L-BTC out of thin air and pegged it out for real bitcoin. It was the biggest crypto theft of the year and it happened on the chain I've spent the last year building on. So this is a good moment to write down why I chose Liquid, whether the exploit changes that, and what I actually think about the alternatives.

Short version: it doesn't change it. Not because the hack wasn't bad. It was. It's because the reasons I picked Liquid were never "Liquid is safe." They were "Liquid is the only place I can write the kind of Bitcoin contracts I want to write, and the work survives even if Liquid doesn't."

What actually happened#

The facts, as best as they've been reported so far:

Let me be blunt about the "whitehat" label, since a lot of coverage repeated it uncritically. A whitehat reports the bug and doesn't touch the money. This person drained 95% of the reserves, kept $47 million, and is now trying to extort a bounty with the remainder. That's theft followed by ransom. It's my opinion and it's also the law. Returning most of what you stole doesn't change what you are.

So: a consensus bug in the node software, not a key compromise and not a federation failure in the trust-model sense. That distinction matters and I'll come back to it.

Why Liquid in the first place#

Bitcoin's scripting language is deliberately limited. That's a feature for a settlement layer and I'm not arguing against it. But it means two things I want are missing:

  1. An expressive contract language. Bitcoin Script can't inspect the transaction that spends it in any meaningful way. You can't say "this coin may only move to an output that looks like X."
  2. Covenants. Same thing from the other direction. Without introspection, you can't build vaults, rate-limited wallets, non-custodial pooled UTXOs, or an AMM whose pool the operator can't rug, all enforced at the consensus layer.

Liquid has both. Simplicity activated on Liquid mainnet on July 31, 2025 after eight years of development. It's a combinator language with no loops and no recursion, designed so that contracts can be statically analyzed and formally verified. It runs alongside Elements' existing introspection opcodes, which have been on Liquid since the Taproot upgrade there. Together that's the most expressive consensus-enforced contract environment that exists on anything pegged to bitcoin.

That's what I'm building on. The first thing I shipped was anchor, an immutable constant-product AMM where each pool is a covenant-controlled UTXO with no admin key, no upgrade path, and no off-chain coordinator. Anyone can open a pool between two Liquid assets and nobody, including me, can touch the funds outside the rules. That project is what got Jan3 interested enough to contract me for what I'm working on now, which is still private while the prototype gets built out. Same idea though: operator actions gated by covenants instead of trust, and a unilateral exit for every user.

None of this is possible on Bitcoin today. Every piece of it needs either introspection or a covenant. And Bitcoin may never get them. CTV (BIP 119) has an activation client live with a signaling window that opened March 30, 2026 and a 90% miner threshold. Miner signaling has been at zero. No major pool has committed. OP_CAT has a BIP number and no activation parameters. Meanwhile BIP-110 tried to force an unrelated change through in August with a 55% threshold, got 2.5% of blocks, and its minority chain died after two blocks. That's the current appetite for soft forks. I can hope, and I do, but I'm not going to wait.

The goal is hyperbitcoinization, not Liquid#

I want to be clear about what I'm optimizing for. I'm not trying to make Liquid win. I'm trying to build things that make bitcoin usable as the money for everything, and I need a place to do the work where the rules are enforced by consensus rather than by a company's goodwill.

Liquid is an experiment. It might disappear. Blockstream might lose interest, the federation might fragment, the peg might break in a way that can't be papered over. If that happens, what I lose is a deployment target. What I keep is:

Simplicity's stated roadmap has always been Liquid first, then Bitcoin testnet, then Bitcoin mainnet once it's battle-tested. If Bitcoin ever gets covenants, in any form, the designs port. If it doesn't, they port to whatever the next Bitcoin-pegged experiment is. The code is transitory. The understanding isn't.

The alternatives, honestly#

I looked at all of these before picking Liquid and I've looked again since the hack. Here's where I land on each.

Spark#

Spark is Lightspark's statechain-based L2. It's technically interesting: users hold bitcoin off-chain in 2-of-2 arrangements with a set of operators using threshold signatures, transfers are instant, and there's a unilateral exit path if the operators go away. It launched in beta in April 2025 and has real volume now, mostly stablecoins.

Unilateral exit is good and I don't want to dismiss it. My problem is with who's building it and why. Lightspark's entire business is connecting regulated institutions to Lightning. Their UMA protocol has KYC, AML, sanctions screening, and travel rule messaging built into the payment flow. Their customers are Coinbase, Xapo, Nubank, Bakkt. They've raised at least $175 million from a16z, Paradigm, and Coatue, and they acquired Striga, a licensed European e-money platform.

That's a company whose product is the bridge between your bitcoin and your bank account, and whose investors expect returns that routing Lightning payments doesn't produce. I can't prove what they do with the data that flows through that bridge. I can say that the incentives point in exactly one direction, and that a system designed to attach identity to payment flows will do so, because that's what it's for. Tying your UTXO history to your bank account is the opposite of what I'm trying to build toward. Spark might be a fine place to move stablecoins for a business that's already fully surveilled. It's not a place to build for hyperbitcoinization.

Drivechain#

BIP 300 and 301 never got activated on Bitcoin. After years of trying, LayerTwo Labs stopped asking and hard-forked instead. The fork is called eCash, ticker ECX, and it's a separate coin airdropped 1:1 to BTC holders. Alpha launched at block 963,648 on August 23, 2026, with a permanent mainnet targeted for around October 31. Drivechains are now a feature of that coin, not of Bitcoin.

To avoid confusion: this "eCash" has nothing to do with Chaumian ecash like Cashu or Fedimint. It's a Bitcoin fork with a new name.

I don't have anything against Paul Sztorc personally and BIP 300 was a serious proposal. But once the sidechain design ships on an altcoin, it's an altcoin. The whole value of building on a Bitcoin sidechain is that the asset is bitcoin. Drivechain is out.

Rootstock, Stacks, and the EVM sidechains#

Rootstock is the fairest of these to Bitcoin. Gas is paid in rBTC, which is pegged bitcoin, and the PowPeg is a 5-of-9 federation with keys in Ledger HSMs that only sign after seeing enough cumulative proof of work. Merge-mined by a large share of Bitcoin hashrate. That's a legitimate design.

But it's an EVM chain. The contract model is Ethereum's, with Ethereum's failure modes, and the ecosystem is organized around the RIF token and whatever DeFi is fashionable this quarter. If I wanted to build on the EVM I'd build on the EVM. I don't. And its federation model is the same category as Liquid's, so it doesn't buy me anything on the trust axis either.

Stacks is worse. It has its own token, STX, that pays for transactions and secures the network. sBTC is a bitcoin-backed asset held by a signer set that's economically bonded in STX. So the security of your bitcoin depends on the price of a different coin. That's the shitcoin problem in its purest form and there's no engineering around it.

Ordinals, inscriptions, Runes, BRC-20, Alkanes#

This is the most tempting category because the asset is unambiguously bitcoin and the chain is unambiguously Bitcoin. Alkanes in particular is doing real work: WASM contracts, AMMs, and more, all riding on Bitcoin transactions.

The problem is that Bitcoin doesn't know any of it exists. Every one of these is a metaprotocol. The state lives in indexers, the rules live in an off-chain spec, and Bitcoin nodes validate none of it. If two indexers disagree, there's no consensus mechanism to resolve it. "Consensus" is whichever indexer the exchanges run. That's a shared belief about what the chain means, not something the chain enforces.

It's also crippled by L1 itself. Every operation is a full Bitcoin transaction paying full Bitcoin fees, with no confidentiality and no ability to have the base layer enforce a covenant. You get the cost of Bitcoin without the guarantees of Bitcoin.

I'm building things that have to survive a century. A protocol where the meaning of the ledger depends on an indexer's interpretation isn't a serious foundation for that, regardless of how much volume it does this year.

Taproot Assets on Lightning#

Taproot Assets is real and it's shipping. Tether's USDT is live on it as of March 2026. Multi-asset Lightning channels work. Version 0.8 is out.

But it's a Lightning Labs product, not a Lightning protocol. It runs on lnd and only lnd. The core protocol was submitted as a set of draft BIPs that remain in draft, and the Lightning integration is meant to be a bLIP, not a BOLT. There is no cross-implementation spec that Core Lightning, Eclair, or LDK have agreed to. That's not a criticism of the engineering. It's a description of the situation: one company controls the protocol, and building on it means betting on that company's roadmap for as long as your thing needs to exist.

And underneath it is Lightning, which is a hard enough foundation on its own. The original Poon-Dryja paper is 59 pages. The BOLTs have grown enormously since. Channel state, HTLCs, watchtowers, force-close games, liquidity management. Now stack a multi-asset layer with its own proof trees on top, and hold it all together across implementations that don't all support it. It's the wild west again, just with better marketing.

Ark, BitVM rollups, and the rest#

Ark deserves a mention because it's the closest thing to what I want on Bitcoin proper. Arkade and Bark are on Bitcoin mainnet, and the unilateral exit story is real. But on Bitcoin without covenants, Ark depends on the operator and the users presigning everything, and VTXOs expire on a timer, so if you don't exit or refresh in time you're relying on the operator. That's exactly the gap covenants close, and it's why the covenant-enforced version of this idea has to be built on Liquid first.

BitVM bridges are the other honest attempt at trust-minimized bitcoin on another chain. Citrea's mainnet launched in January with a BitVM2 bridge. It's early, it's complex, and the rollup is an EVM. Worth watching. Not where I'm building.

What the hack does and doesn't change#

The exploit was a bug in the node software, the same class of bug that Bitcoin itself has had. CVE-2018-17144, the inflation bug in Bitcoin Core, would have let anyone print bitcoin if it had been exploited. It was patched before that happened. Liquid wasn't so lucky. That's a difference in outcome, not in kind.

What the hack does tell me:

What it doesn't tell me:

I'm not naive about the federation. Liquid is trusted in a way that Bitcoin is not, and I've never pretended otherwise. But the contracts I'm writing are the same contracts I'd write on Bitcoin if Bitcoin could run them. The trust in Blockstream is a deployment detail. The trust in the covenant is the product.

A side note on CTV and OP_CAT#

If you take one thing from this: the reason people build on Liquid, Stacks, Rootstock, Citrea, or Alkanes is that Bitcoin won't let them build on Bitcoin. Every one of those is a workaround for a missing primitive.

CTV is small, well-understood, and has been reviewed for six years. It gives you templated outputs: enough for vaults, congestion control, and real non-custodial batching. OP_CAT is one opcode that, combined with Schnorr, gets you general introspection. Either one would let a large fraction of the work happening on sidechains move home.

So here's the ask. Go read BIP 119 yourself. It's short, and the activation client and its parameters are public. Don't take my word for it, and don't take the word of whoever is loudest against it. If you read it and decide it's a bad idea, say why, publicly, on Nostr, X, Stacker News, Reddit, or wherever you post. That's useful. If you read it and decide it's a good idea, say that too, and then run the activation client. The signaling window is open until March 30, 2027 and needs 90% of miners. Miners follow demand they can see. Right now the only thing they can see is silence, and silence reads as no.

I'd rather be building on Bitcoin. Until that's possible, I'm building the same things on the one chain that lets me, and I'm keeping the code portable for the day it is.

#bitcoin#covenants#ctv#liquid#op_cat

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Comments95

¡M0053!

I appreciate the nuance and reason here. I agree liquid (elements) is possibly the best in class solution even still. It will be quite sad if this hack cripples it. I appreciate what you're doing.
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SPA (Super Phat Arrow)

Good read. Good luck. I reckon liquid is toast though.
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OceanSlimAuthor

Doesn't matter. The code transcends. But I think liquid will be back working and fully functioning again at some point. It's all functional now except for peg out.
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Naruto

I cannot believe the state covenants are in rn. The arguments against are utterly retarded. It's rough that utter retardation is now holding Bitcoin back. Good on you for trying.
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OceanSlimAuthor

The only way for it to get better is to keep building.
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Justin (shocknet) ⚡

Could save yourself a lot of pain by just realizing that Bitcoin is not an application stack, nor should it be. It is money, not an application stack for money.
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OceanSlimAuthor

I am not in any pain. And you are building applications on top of Bitcoin too... So idk wtf you are even on about. Totally missing the whole point of the article. You want CTV or nah? I'm pretty clear that liquid winning is not the goal. I don't care about liquid network winning or whatever. That's not why I'm building there. Maybe actually read the article before dumping a stupid comment.
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Justin (shocknet) ⚡

I build applications for Bitcoin, not on Bitcoin. No, CTV is both retarded and an attack on Bitcoin. The only use-cases for it are DeFi-brained crypto-theater. It has no monetary use. Liquid is just a symptom of a mental disease.
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OceanSlimAuthor

A distinction without a difference. What is the lightning network? If that's all you think CTV is, it's clear you don't understand the implications of it.
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Justin (shocknet) ⚡replying to OceanSlim

The difference is enormous, one requires no crypto-theater, the other is some ethereum-obsessed cope. Lightning inherits the properties of Bitcoin, even Satoshi demonstrated payment channels. I know what CTV is, clearly you do not, and are tilting at windmills wishing Bitcoin becomes something other than money. It's bithereum nonsense.
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OceanSlimAuthorreplying to Justin (shocknet) ⚡

You ascribe motivation to me that I do not have. You're just obsessed with lightning and think it's the end all be all.
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Justin (shocknet) ⚡replying to OceanSlim

Instant, effectively free transactions, are the be all and end all of money (after hard supply and permissionlessness) You do not believe Bitcoin is money and that is why you are unsatisfied and reaching for bithereum slop.
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OceanSlimAuthorreplying to Justin (shocknet) ⚡

I believe Bitcoin is money. So that's not true. And lightning is not instant in all cases and it's definitely not anywhere close to free. It's also gravitates capital to larger nodes. There are a lot of problems with lightning you're just glossing over. Go get grandma to run a lightning node. Or will they just use custody solutions instead because they don't have a million sats laying around to even begin thinking about locking their whole stack in a contract on chain and introduce yet another layer accidents and vulnerabilities to themselves.
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Justin (shocknet) ⚡replying to OceanSlim

Mobile node fantasies and yield chasing morons gravitates capital to larger nodes. Lightning itself otherwise incentivizes economic peering, which is distributed. Obviously, Amazon would have more channels than your barber. Chain transactions are not instant, but chain transactions are inherent to security. One chain transaction is enough for infinite instant transactions. If grandma can copy and paste one line, she can set up a Lightning node... and even share it with her grandkids: https://Lightning.Pub Your "solutions" are just trust smuggling lies.
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OceanSlimAuthorreplying to Justin (shocknet) ⚡

You see I'm fine with having a conversation. What I'm not fine with are your baseless accusations and insulting nature. I try not to lie. I try to follow the 10 commandments. You're not arguing. You're just acting in bad faith because you disagree with me and then ascribe opinions to myself that I do not hold. It's bad form.
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Justin (shocknet) ⚡replying to OceanSlim

I'm stating facts, you just don't like them. A lie is a lie whether or not that was the intent.
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Narutoreplying to Justin (shocknet) ⚡

Instead of going on your rants and attacks, you could've just explained how your product works and everyone here could've had a productive conversation. It actually does look like interesting tech you've implemented here that could help relieve some of the issues getting Lightning set up. Do you want to explain how the protocol uses Nostr relays for communication to avoid the annoying hurdles you highlight? Or how it handles channel (re)balancing? What happens when LND has a critical issue and needs to be updated? Does your software just ping some server and auto update? I recommend an FAQ so people interested can understand it better. I doubt you're going to answer these questions, but your product would be more interesting if the answers to these questions were easier to find.
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Justin (shocknet) ⚡replying to Naruto

I'm happy to explain when people genuinely want to understand problems and solutions, shitcoining and crypto-theater signals the opposite. See my original reply to this thread, and the violent knee-jerk reaction to the idea Bitcoin isn't an application stack. An actual problems in Lightning are largely caused by the Lightning ecosystem itself, bad incentives created things like mobile nodes. Stupidity, NGO funding, and disinformation operations creates bad advice around it to spread. These same counter-signals are now pushing Spark and Ark, and the NGO's Nostr solves 1 specific problem, making the node useful. To be useful it must connect to the web/apps, otherwise you're running a node out of ideological charity. Running a node on ideological charity makes inherent chain cost feel more expensive than they are, all squeeze and no juice. Channel balancing is an anti-pattern, a best practice node never needs rebalancing. This is aforementioned bad advice that has spread. Automation covers most everything else. Auto-updates are disabled by default since that's a sensitive trust issue, but can be turned on. In light of all the security hits ongoing, we may flip this though. Timed polls check for updates, install, and restart services. Supported on Linux with systemd and MacOS. There is a faq at docs.shock.network, granted it needs work, big release in the hopper so it will get some attention soon. More color on the overall thesis here:
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Narutoreplying to Justin (shocknet) ⚡

Thanks, I will read in more depth and respond to the technical points when I get the chance. I think you attribute malicious intent where there isn't. I choose Monero for example because after researching Lightning in depth, I genuinely don't think there is a good catch all solution to make it as easy to use privately as Monero. I'm always willing to hear subatantiated arguments why that's not the case. It's also clear the other guy in the thread isn't coming from a place of malicious intent. Guy is building on vaporware and basically knows it. The writeup clearly indicates he has an intellectually honest opinion in favor of Ark and clearly is willing to toil away because of that honest view. Your product would likely improve by being more willing to engage honestly with people who obviously want to poke honest holes in it.
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Narutoreplying to Justin (shocknet) ⚡

Alright I think I understand the communication side. I stopped halfway because it's long, but it sounds cool. Soubds like a nostr relay functions as a proxy to the lightning node so users can communicate through the relay to: (a) send payments. (b) create invoices to receive payments. (c) query for their transaction history. Let's say I'm using your mobile wallet and want to send a lightning payment to Alice. I send an encrypted blob to the nostr relay to forward to my lightning node. My lightning node sees the event and decrypts the blob and sends the payment through the lightning network. So the nostr relay is seeing when I make a payment and can guess that's what I'm doing, but doesn't see the contents of the payment. Does that accurately explain (a)? How do you implement async receive if others aren't using nostr to communicate and are just using a plain old lightning wallet? In other words, how do I receive a payment from Alice while I'm offline and assuming Alice is using Zeus?
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Justin (shocknet) ⚡replying to Naruto

Pretty much, relay sees the metadata, but the nostr keys aren't social keys, so it's just seeing arbitrary keys that can be rolled There's no such thing as async receive, just as your email server is online all the time so too must your node be. It's not like the chain where coin is signed over to you, you must be online to claim it. Ark/Spark and other fake L2's just smuggle trust to fake it. Mobile nodes are the aforementioned bad incentives and stupidity, they exist to sell LSP services and cost you money rather than earn money.
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Narutoreplying to Justin (shocknet) ⚡

But isn't the lightning node going to ask for that specific message from the relay? I could be misunderstanding nostr if so. I get that the node is always online. It does sound like you're suggesting Alice's wallet use nostr to communicate with my lightning node also so Alice can send me a payment? Is there another way I can receive a payment from Alice without me manually needing to generate the receive invoice when Alice wants to pay me? How can I receive the payment while I'm asleep, how would it work?
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Justin (shocknet) ⚡replying to Naruto

The node (pub) subscribes at the relay for any of the supported kinds addressed to its nostr key. The nostr key isn't necessarily bound to the lightning key, it's just a wrapper, so it could have multiple, be in a round robin, etc Alice, if her wallet supports CLINK, could request an invoice directly from your node via its noffer string (relay, key, pointer). You can sleep, as long as your node is real and online like an email server. For wallets that don't support CLINK, offers are useful in web apps since bolt11 is the lingua franca... This makes it useful for webshops etc. The nostr transport also solves payer_data, like email, T-shirt size, SKU It also removes the trust inherent to a lnurl bridge that could change the delivered invoice, and let's apps be static pages rather than a service. Example, this is just html css and js, no server process: https://pay.shockwallet.app/?n…fchungtv
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Justin (shocknet) ⚡replying to Justin (shocknet) ⚡

Diagram, spec etc here: https://clinkme.dev
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Narutoreplying to Justin (shocknet) ⚡

If the lightning node is on a clearnet IP, it has a consistent fingerprint to the relay so key rotation doesn't really help. The relay can see sends and with this design, would also see receives. Sends are probably not a huge deal. A lot of people use proxies running in a VPS to connect to their nodes even in Monero land. The VPS, like the relay here, can likely fingerprint sends. Receives on the other hand are not the same. With this design, there is an additional leak for every received payment since receives also have to go through the relay too. It's encrypted, so that's good. But it's a leak. And there are other targeted attacks on the lightning node to gather information about transactions being sent from and received to the node that create a wider surface area here than for Monero. For the casual user, I would say your design is interesting nonetheless. Compared to Ark, which relies on coinjoins for privacy, this is competitive. I don't discount it wholesale. I like this design. I will keep thinking about it. Is there somewhere I can read more about your view that channel rebalancing is unnecessary? You have major confidence that a channel created through yourself will remain open for a very long time? Can you expand on why?
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Justin (shocknet) ⚡replying to Naruto

Any IP level obfuscation can still be used, vpn, vps etc Since it's punching out instead of serving it's an improvement because you can vpn hop and never rely on dns or static IP Interactivity is a requirement for commerce at scale, you can't have users waiting for block confirmations to unlock a video paywall or settle an on demand API There's no central coordinator counter signing each transaction so it's infinitely more private than Ark/Spark or a Coinjoin (the later being sybil'd pots recycling coin to see who enters exits, they are IC run traps) Recent rebalance mention link below, the correct practice is fee adjustment and redundancy. Alex Bosworth is the one who first pointed this out. Channels pay for themselves very quickly with actual use (not mobile node tinkering with overpriced LSP lease). Closes and opens cost very little and are, in my many years now of experience, fairly infrequent... because I'm not peering with or tying up liquidity from a mobile node that's unreachable 23.5 hours per day and being used by only 1 device Can also search SN for my posts about how all stupidity in lightning is downstream of the mobile node fantasy https://stacker.news/items/157…=1574421
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Narutoreplying to Justin (shocknet) ⚡

Grandma's not going to VPN hop. Your service isn't going to VPN hop out of the box either. Either way, you move trust for privacy to VPN's regardless. I think you're a little too dismissive of an obvious privacy concern that's reliant on trusted third parties. Instant settlement for digital goods is nice, but commerce for physical goods absolutely works at scale waiting days for settlement. Credit card transactions are not instantly settled. There is a level of trust involved when I go to a store and don't steal the goods always. Commerce runs at scale on that trust today. I agree it's a good aim as laid out in the white paper to aim to minimize that trust, but I think it's too reductive to say it doesn't work at scale. I agree the lack of a central coordinator is an advantage over coinjoins. There are still relevant privacy concerns we haven't even discussed, like the channel opening revealing UTXO to the channel partner for example. Can you define "fairly infrequent" for you? Are you opening channels with known good node operators (and therefore helping centralize the network that way)? How do you guarantee you're nor opening with some other mobile node?
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Narutoreplying to Naruto

Above said, I do think you have a good idea here. I'm not convinced everyone will start using wallet apps that use nostr in the background for lightning payments, nor that all serious UX hurdles to deal with managing a lightning node will be solved, nor that the privacy solution is ironclad. But I do think you can make a good dent on some of the issues in Lightning today. I'm not rooting for your failure. I would be happy to be proven wrong. I will monitor your product's impact on the lightning ecosystem. I would be happy to see it succeed. I also don't see why Monero is so antithetical to your thesis. No reason it couldn't fit alongside Bitcoin among the millions (not billions) eventually using non custodial p2p money. It's good there are options. But whatever, I don't care to shill you Monero.
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Justin (shocknet) ⚡replying to Naruto

Grandma doesn't VPN hop now to do chain transactions either, it's the same model, when you emit a signed TX you're still hitting a relay (as in another node) to get into the mempool. IP level obfuscation mechanics are the same. I'm also a privacy realist and don't engage in privacy LARP. Waiting for a block doesn't work in the meatspace either, credit cards don't settle for over a month, but the trust instantly moves from the customer to the processor where trust is already implied. Zero conf TX's are analogous to checks, which no one takes anymore outside of where credit already exists, because of bad checks. My experience aside, the "average" channel life is 1.8 years according to an AI read of explorers. Since Lightning channels are just re-usable chain transactions, you only need to use them 3 times to amortize break-even. An active node not sleeping in your pocket will use them hundreds or thousands of times over that period. Peering is economic, the best peers are the entities you actually pay for stuff. Amazon should have a bigger node than say, your barber. If your barber has hundreds of customers though he would have ample peering from his customers. If that barber buys eggs from a local farm and peers with them, all of his customers can instantly pay the farm too... and so on. Monero is not the most sale-able good, it's not the world reserve currency. I could vibe code a new shitcoin with 10 second blocks thats "better" for payments faster than it takes to write this response, but it wouldn't matter, it'd wouldn't be the black hole of liquidity in the world. Anyone can squiggle lines on paper, but other fiats are only as valuable as the dollars they can buy. Money is like gravity, and there are only 2 solar systems, Dollars and Bitcoin, everything else revolves around those... and Bitcoin's gravity is actively sucking in the weaker dollar system.
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Narutoreplying to Justin (shocknet) ⚡

No question this model is superior to Bitcoin on chain, obviously. I'm saying IP obfuscation is privacy larp that's not actually going to benefit the average user. Sure compared to Monero, this privacy model isn't terrible. It has leaks in various places worse than Monero but I'd agree it's probably good enough for the average person especially compared to default Bitcoin on chain. I think your primary challenge is convincing people to use nostr to communicate in all lightning wallets (or I guess reaching critical mass with your wallet alone), so receiving with your wallet is a breeze and doesn't require interaction. Secondarily it's managing channels well and in an intuitive manner that doesn't leave users extremely confused when things inevitably go wrong. Both are significant hurdles and I wish you good luck in solving them with your software. You can prove a lot of people wrong if your software and ideas proliferate (I recommend not mud wrestling with everyone and focusing instead on productive discussions like this to get more people to listen). Yes Lightning works well if the economic network ends up looking ideal to how you hope it looks. But it has to work well assuming it doesn't also, like assuming mobile nodes remain on the network over the medium to long term. Otherwise you will have trouble reaching a critical mass of nostr compatible wallets. Monero obviously isn't special because it has 2 minute block times. No one claims that. It's not Litecoin. You can try to vibe code something like Monero and fail, either from vibe coding an inflation bug or obviously from lack of adoption. A 12 year gold track record is hard to beat without a legitimately compelling attractive reason for existing. Monero has plenty of characteristics that make it an attractive option as private p2p money that only relies on the other person downloading an app on their mobile phone once. That's why it's sucking up markets Bitcoin used to dominate. Where most people actually use p2p money today because it's needed and not ideological larp / gambling / speculative / financial engineering nonsense. There's no reason people couldn't use multiple forms of digital money in an internet era.
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Narutoreplying to Naruto

Sorry I meant to add: trust is always incumbent on the customer in meatspace anyway to not simply walk away from self checkout and to scan the items and pay for them. Checks didn't die because of the fraud problem (which is obviously a problem). Checks died because cashing a check is inconvenient compared to processing a credit card payment.
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Justin (shocknet) ⚡replying to Naruto

Part of the design is that people don't need to know they're using Nostr, and that wallets don't need to adopt it... bolt11 is the lingua franca. My link above demonstrates how you can pay my CLINK offer without my (or Zeus) wallet. You can still zap me without Shock/Zeus wallets. The unlock of CLINK is getting nodes connected to apps, so people wanting to earn revenue with Lightning can do that easier and it doesn't impart a new requirement on the buy-side. Nostr is just json and websockets, same stuff the web is already made of. Mobile wallets will continue to exist as a gateway drug, but serious people who want to do more than just tinker with it and lose money will upgrade. A small number of people may continue to use shitcoins as they use Amazon and Apple gift cards in street barter. That's an irrelevant part of the economy, and at the end of the day still that value is denominated in how many dollars they buy. Shitcoins are denominated in how much Bitcoin they can buy. Money networks centralize to a shelling point, the unit of account. Just as the Canadian shitcoin is priced in Dollars. Point of order, Bitcoin only scales to about 200M people at best as a function of supply distribution. Credit and equity will persist at the edge. Lightning is how the high-frequency subset of that 200M can settle efficiently. Trade of intransigence is 1:1 via DM's, company websites, and the meatspace. Not centralized Tor larp markets stuck in the Silk Road mindset. If Monero is to have an actual use-case outside of larp, it needs to be liquid against Bitcoin at the edge. If it does that, then it can start to compete with fake Layer 2's and grow as a network as an alternative to bolt11. Trustless cross-chain swaps are not technically possible however, but, atomic escrow systems might be able to blurr the lines just enough to make it relevant. The issue then is it's no different than any other shitcoin, could make the same case for ZCash and god knows what else. This is the same problem stablecoins have, balkanization.
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Narutoreplying to Justin (shocknet) ⚡

I guess I misunderstood on the nostr requirement. I'll go back and re-read how that works. It's silly to discount Monero because the fiat system currently looks at it disfavorably, and then in the same breath say atomic swaps are the key? What atomic swaps are there for fiat and Bitcoin lol? In any case, trustless atomic swaps between Bitcoin and Monero are not only technically possible, they're fairly straightforward to do thanks to Eigen Wallet. Monero is very different from any other asset. Unlike basically all others, it had a fair PoW launch and no insider allocation, it has a 12 year history of no compromised supply integrity and fairly strong consistent adoption, a very active developer community and ecosystem, an open forum for changes, ASIC resistant PoW algorithm innovated by Monero now also used in Tor, strong privacy features that are easy to use defaults out of the box for all users. List goes on. These aren't easily replicable with an LLM. Thinking that the one thing it's missing is acceptance by the fiat finance lords is not the right foundation to build money that can't be fucked with. Low time preference = the finance lords will eventually figure it out once grassroots start using it. Not "let's get the finance lords to accept it now and hope adoption comes later." Wall Street catching on and supporting Bitcoin before Bitcoin is significantly used as money was not a good thing. The hard truth is fiat is functioning well enough today and most people don't need to use p2p money except larps. It's all larps using self custodial lightning these days too. We'll see if Monero's liquidity improves any time soon though. I do agree it's an important thing.
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Justin (shocknet) ⚡replying to Naruto

> What atomic swaps are there for fiat and Bitcoin Exactly, they don't exist. That's one reason Bitcoin is the unit of account, the lack of atomicity between other currencies amplifies the necessity of a broader network and sale-ability. Cross-chain swaps that promise trustless atomicity are scamming with crypto-theater, it's not possible. Because the 2 chains are different, the initial lockup provides one side a free option on exchange rate and it assumes 2 chains have a shared understanding of time. Even if the provider can't unilaterally rug you, the free option means they don't have to, they simple take advantage of liquidity asymmetry. This is friction and costs that weaken the value of the shitcoin.
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Narutoreplying to Justin (shocknet) ⚡

That's not a terrible point. Although any market has pricing mechanic issues. That's definitely overly reductive in concluding it's not trustless, though. The most you can lose is fees, same as with Lightning. If you also overly reduce Lightning to say it's not trustless, then I would say you're being intellectually honest with that point. Nothing is truly trustless in reality. Even Bitcoin can experience reorgs. I'd accept an intellectually honest agreement that trust minimized swaps exist.
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Justin (shocknet) ⚡replying to Naruto

Lightning has a liveness requirement that the base chain doesn't. That's the trade-off, it is trustless, with the asterisk of liveness. Lightning Bitcoin and Chain Bitcoin are the same unit, it does not have cross-chain asymmetry.
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Narutoreplying to Justin (shocknet) ⚡

It's not just a liveness requirement. That is an overly reductive view. You incur fees if the channel party goes offline. The channel party can collude with the intended recipient (or at the time of a sensitive transaction) to fuck you at just the right time if they want to. Then the exchange rate can fluctuate before you can make a payment. If you call Lightning trustless but not atomic swaps on the grounds of your rationale, it's plain old intellectualy dishonest.
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Narutoreplying to Naruto

The exchange rate can even fluctuate while your channel partner is tasked with routing the payment. They can hold onto it. High frequency traders have shown even miliseconds is enough to scalp.
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Justin (shocknet) ⚡replying to Naruto

There is no exchange rate, it's the same unit. The sender reveals the preimage only once the fee is agreed to. Fee's are fill-or-kill. I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how Lightning works, it's not even remotely comparable to cross-chain.
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Narutoreplying to Justin (shocknet) ⚡

Fair, there is an exchange rate for goods denominated in dollars, which is still the case for most goods on the internet these days except among larpers. If the channel party knows the lightning user is purchasing something because they are colluding with the merchant, then the counterparty has leverage. That impacts the trust model.
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Justin (shocknet) ⚡replying to Naruto

... what? If I'm buying a thing for $100, the seller sends me an invoice for 100 sats (assume sat/dollar parity for easy math) I as the buyer am paying only that 100 sat invoice, plus whatever routing fee I allow for... call that 101 sat max. The channel peer has no say in that value beyond that 0 to 1 sat ceil. If the seller of beef decides he needs to charge 110 sats, he has to issue a new invoice that I need to agree to pay. Only the seller and buyer are agreeing to terms. The max routing fee is defined by the buyer.
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Narutoreplying to Justin (shocknet) ⚡

Assume the merchant is colluding with the channel partner. Buyer sends 100 sat payment through channel partner, channel partner knows this is a payment going to the merchant since merchant alerts the channel partner a payment is coming. Channel partner sits on the blob for 100ms. BTC fiat price goes up so the thing now costs 90 sats. Channel partner then routes the blob. Or, BTC fiat price goes down so the thing now costs 110 sats. Channel partner decides not to route the blob and chalks it up to one of those sporadic failures. Roughly the same failure mode is possible.
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Justin (shocknet) ⚡replying to Naruto

Doesn't matter, the invoice comes from the merchant... not the channel partner. Buyer still has to agree to a new exchange rate with the seller. Merchant doesn't even need to collude with the channel partner, they can just stick the payment themselves. That's a merchant simply not rendering goods at the agreed upon price, same as cash gold or anything else. Has nothing to do with swappiness.
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Narutoreplying to Justin (shocknet) ⚡

Atomic swaps work the same way. They are an interactive protocol where the buyer agrees to a predefined exchange rate.
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Justin (shocknet) ⚡replying to Naruto

A merchant is selling an actual good, inventory they are stuck with if they reneg on a sale. A swap is arbitrage where the liquidity provider gets a free option. A merchant doesn't have a free option. A multi-currency swap is additional to the merchants/buyer agreed exchange rate. A multi-currency swap into a physical good exacerbates the dilemma because its no longer bitcoin<>dollars ... its shitcoin<>bitcoin<>dollars, and why the shitcoin is always worth less with a smaller network.
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Narutoreplying to Justin (shocknet) ⚡

The merchant (or swap provider) is stuck with their actual good if they reneg on a sale in both cases. Exchange rates can fluctuate after the invoice is received and payment sent in both cases. The mechanics you state that render atomic swaps not trustless are equally applicable to fiat denominated lightning payments for goods and services. I agree that multi-currency swaps exacerbate this issue. I agree it's a valid con to not be the reserve currency. I disagree it renders alternative currency functionally useless, especially in the digital age where it will get easier to swap digital assets.
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Justin (shocknet) ⚡replying to Naruto

Selling a good for Bitcoin, fiat, or gold is not atomic nor trustless. Therefore, cross-chain swaps aren't either. A money's usefulness is a function of its network, it's saleability. All other properties only serve that end. Use Monero all you want, because at the end of the day any value anyone places in it accrue to Bitcoin, the actual reserve currency.
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Narutoreplying to Justin (shocknet) ⚡

By the same rationale, no payment can ever be trustless. It's overly reductive logic. Using that kind of logic to call things scams cheapens the term and renders it meaningless. I'd love to see a world where Bitcoin is reserve currency personally. A world where goods and services are denominated in Bitcoin, where people still use Monero often, would be great. If Bitcoin truly becomes the reserve currency, I think Monero would still be an extremely useful asset in that world.
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Fênixreplying to Justin (shocknet) ⚡

Cool interview! you got right to the point.
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OceanSlimAuthorreplying to Justin (shocknet) ⚡

"You don't know what CTV is." Says the guy that's never built anything with it to the guy that's built several things with it.
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Justin (shocknet) ⚡replying to OceanSlim

Yes, the guy building on Liquid clearly doesn't know anything.
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OceanSlimAuthorreplying to Justin (shocknet) ⚡

The article makes a case why I don't build elsewhere. Again totally missing the point that it has nothing to do with liquid network itself or blockstream or whatever.
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Naruto

😂 Bitcoin is so cooked thanks to people like you. Ark is the best monetary use case Bitcoin can possibly have going forward. It solves plenty of problems with Lightning and scales well. As a Monero-stan, Ark would give legitimate reason for people to be less interested in Monero.
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Justin (shocknet) ⚡replying to Naruto

Cope and seethe shitcoiner Ark is crypto-theater riding scam narratives, get educated.
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Narutoreplying to Justin (shocknet) ⚡

I actually like how rational people realize how fucked Bitcoin is for p2p payments. I'm coping big time with the clear respect Monero has around here thanks to tards like you. Ark with covenants enables: - Receiving money while offline. You don't need an always on machine loaded with hot private keys. - Receiving money without needing money first. - Sending and receiving money without needing to manage rebalancing channels. - Drastically simpler non custodial scalable payments. Grandma doesn't need to use the command line 😂 These are all strictly monetary use cases that are improvements over Lightning. Bitcoin looks totally cooked thanks to retards like you unable to have intellectually honest discussions. You argue and reason like a child.
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Justin (shocknet) ⚡replying to Naruto

> retards like you > Monero stan Lol
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Narutoreplying to Justin (shocknet) ⚡

😂 Yes Monero functions excellent as censorship resistant private money because unfortunately Bitcoin hit a wall
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Justin (shocknet) ⚡replying to Naruto

I'm glad you and the dozen other larps at the ren faire are happy with it, big kids table is working on the world reserve currency
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Narutoreplying to Justin (shocknet) ⚡

Yes yes El Salvador adoption is looking fantastic! Michael Saylor is the goat! You're doing so good! Ignoring the clear faults with the user experience as p2p money is a retarded thing to do. The path to world reserve currency requires a good user experience for non custodial payments. Monero has its own set of issues to deal with, yaknow like how the government has basically targeted it and doesn't allow regulated exchanges to list it. Bitcoin has it pretttttty easy on the censorship front in contrast, I wonder why that is! And still, the Monero economy is growing and people who want to see p2p money succeed who have a brain are getting their feet wet dipping their toes in. Your "sHiTcoiN" retardation is losing, retard.
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Justin (shocknet) ⚡replying to Naruto

hfsp
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Narutoreplying to Justin (shocknet) ⚡

Have fun staying retarded 😂 Image
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Libertas Primordiumreplying to Naruto

Looks fucked. Dump it. Image
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Justin (shocknet) ⚡replying to Naruto

Yea, still a lot of shitcoiners just as retarded as they were in 2017 Image
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Narutoreplying to Justin (shocknet) ⚡

Zoom out. Image
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Narutoreplying to Naruto

I like how this turned into a conversation about price too. Classic retard toxic Bitcoin maxi. Ignoring all substance and faults and using gay and retarded one liners
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Justin (shocknet) ⚡replying to Naruto

Yea can see where the founder made a fortune dumping on you idiots
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Narutoreplying to Justin (shocknet) ⚡

That would be awesome if that was true. I actually didn't own Monero then. That would mean the supply is well distributed now. Meanwhile Satoshi is sitting on 1 million coins you fucking idiot! 😂
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Justin (shocknet) ⚡replying to Naruto

Distributed at ren faires and comic book conventions for pfunks and kratom... and doesn't even have a maximum supply. Sad!
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Narutoreplying to Justin (shocknet) ⚡

Yeah and also those markets where it actually matters how censorship resistant your money is. The ones that Bitcoin used to dominate on, but because Bitcoin chooses to cuck itself as money, people started choosing Monero. Doesn't have a maximum supply is classic cope 😂 currently has a lower inflation rate than Bitcoin, and the block reward is fixed at 0.6 new Monero forever.
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Justin (shocknet) ⚡replying to Naruto

Bitcoin hasn't changed, only ones that cucked themselves are losers who find virtue in losing, so use irrelevant shitcoins because they can't handle winning. There will only ever be 2.1q sats, 0 inflation, you have no idea how many of your shittokens there will be (or even are because its an inflation-prone larp)
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Narutoreplying to Justin (shocknet) ⚡

Using excellent private money that's easy to use is a weird way to define losing. I've bought plenty of things with it and I look forward to its growing adoption so I can buy more, and so you can seethe about it. I know exactly how many Monero there are and will be. It uses cryptography to verify the supply is intact, like how Bitcoin uses cryptogrpahy to make sure no one can steal your money. Its assumptions are more significant than Bitcoin's because using money in a private way is a great use case for money that I enjoy having easily by pressing send in my wallet, and not dealing with 40 hoops to set up a Lightning node and manage channels properly.
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Justin (shocknet) ⚡replying to Naruto

Except that it's not money, it's a shitcoin. Bitcoin is money. Your shitcoin is also not private, too low of an anonset and the idea that it is just makes it honeypot for losers. Fortunately the NSA doesn't give a shit about your kratom buys or comic books. Can use Lightning for monetary privacy, it's not 40 hoops, just one... but you've admitted you're too stupid simply install an app that handles the automation... or just a luddite stuck in 2017.
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Narutoreplying to Justin (shocknet) ⚡

Just because you have a retarded ideology doesn't mean Monero isn't money 😂 I and others use it as money often. I know words and definitions can be hard sometimes and it's fun and tempting to try to change them around to fit your worldview, but unfortunately English doesn't work like that! Sorry, toxic maxi! Say what's the honeypot now? https://chainscorelabs.com/pro…iscovery
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Justin (shocknet) ⚡replying to Naruto

Shitcoin definition hasn't changed. Not Bitcoin = shitcoin You seem to want to pretend your shitcoin isn't a shitcoin, seems you're the one trying to change the meaning of words. Privacy is a benefit of lightning, but it doesn't exist for that purpose unlike your larp coin. one trick pony = honeypot. Far more attacks possible on your larp chain.
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Narutoreplying to Justin (shocknet) ⚡

It seems you need your retard hand held through a dictionary, I'll help you out! Money is an asset that functions as a unit of account, store of value, and medium of exchange. Monero I divisible into subunits, same as Bitcoin. Therefore it meets unit of account. Monero has stored value well for its 12 year history as demonstrated above. In fact it weathers volatility quite well too. And of course, I can easily send and receive divisible units to people over the internet with privacy. It works great as a medium of exchange. Money is a technical term with a definition, and Monero meets the definition. Throwing around the term "shiTcOiN" like a retarded monkey in a playground doesn't change the facts. Feel free to name an attack on Monero, retard. The rest of what you said there was too retarded to be worth responding to 😂
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Justin (shocknet) ⚡replying to Naruto

Not Bitcoin = shitcoin. Accept this. I can throw around shitcoin more than you can throw around retard. The only retard here is the one that thinks lightning is too hard for their little mind.
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Narutoreplying to Justin (shocknet) ⚡

I'll accept you're a retarded monkey, sure thing boss!
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Justin (shocknet) ⚡replying to Naruto

If im a retarded monkey and find lightning extremely simple then that makes you dumber than a retarded monkey Get back to your comic books
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Narutoreplying to Justin (shocknet) ⚡

Yes yes, keep gaslighting about how simple it is to use lightning. Ignore when people share their lived experiences like this Quoted note Your ideology is fine. There haven't actually been a series of critical vulnerabilities in the majority of lightning nodes in recent days. No one has failed payment issues ever anymore, it's all solved. None of what I said about Ark is actually validly addressing anything wrong whatsoever with Lightning. Everything is perfect. That's the right idea! That's how the cult survives!
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Justin (shocknet) ⚡replying to Naruto

Your whole argument is you're too stupid to use it, yet people do use it, so by the powers of deduction you're a bigger moron than every Lightning user. Impressive accomplishment. Ark is a scam for morons, not surprised you'd buy the marketing those scammers put out.
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Narutoreplying to Justin (shocknet) ⚡

No, the crux of my argument is that it's a pain to use it properly. The small (and shrinking) number of people using non custodial lightning speaks for itself. But that was another nice spin attempt by you, toxic maxi. Your spinning doesn't work here and people are figuring it out. You're going to have to keep coping with that. Calling everything a scam and flinging shit everywhere like a retarded monkey instead of forming rational arguments and having intellectually honest discussions is another reason why your cult is dying. People recognize how foolish you look and are taking you lot less and less seriously. For good reason.
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Justin (shocknet) ⚡replying to Naruto

Installing app that automates everything for you... so hard... cry harder shitcoiner.
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Narutoreplying to Justin (shocknet) ⚡

You hear that @Settebello ? Lightning is actually simple! You're just a retarded moron according to this toxic maxi!
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Fênixreplying to Justin (shocknet) ⚡

Alternativa é meu ovo Se não é bitcoin é merda
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Narutoreplying to Fênix

Thank you for your contribution! Image
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Libertas Primordiumreplying to Justin (shocknet) ⚡

Gold is the world reserve currency. Always was, and will be again. Countries aren't buying Bitcoin, they're quietly unloading US treasuries and buying gold. That's the reason why yields up + gold price up. Nobody gives a shit about Bitcoin and your world reserve currency fantasies are stupid. Meanwhile Monero is providing a way for regular people to easily transact without revealing their entire history of financial activity. Bitcoiners around the world are being physically attacked by thieves because of Bitcoin's non-existent privacy. No Monero user has ever been attacked because nobody knows who holds the Monero.
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Ricardo Martinezreplying to Naruto

I am not a fan of shared utxos. Hard pass.
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OceanSlimAuthorreplying to Justin (shocknet) ⚡

You have a very limited vocabulary it seems.
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Justin (shocknet) ⚡replying to OceanSlim

Credit where due, you crypto theater kids are good at making up new words for trust and centralization.
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OceanSlimAuthorreplying to Justin (shocknet) ⚡

Like what? Because I haven't claimed anything about liquid not requiring trust or being decentralized. I think you need to touch grass brother. Your attitude is abhorrent.
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Justin (shocknet) ⚡replying to OceanSlim

CTV is literally just delegation to centralized apps I'll take your tone policing as admission you lack understanding of what you're arguing
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OceanSlimAuthorreplying to Justin (shocknet) ⚡

I'm not policing you in any way. I'm just telling you how it is. I will continue to build contracts in an effort to make Bitcoin accessible by everyone.
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Narutoreplying to OceanSlim

What's funny is that he has a reasonable point to make about centralization risk with Ark and pooled UTXO's, but he makes his point in such a childish manner that no interesting discussion can be had. Sorry but this is the current state of Bitcoin: a shit flinging circus.
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Contents

6 sections

  1. What actually happened
  2. Why Liquid in the first place
  3. The goal is hyperbitcoinization, not Liquid
  4. The alternatives, honestly
  5. What the hack does and doesn't change
  6. A side note on CTV and OP_CAT